Curse

arcady · Nov 13, 2006, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I've done fairly well for skill gathering in Nightfall for a low level protection Monk. By level 5 I was able to mirror the heroine Talkora.

I don't have any elites, I honestly have no idea even where to get them, so I lack what it would take for PvP / GvG, but its viable for PUGs.

gobla · Nov 13, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yadee

Yup, i have started getting elite skills now (i have 4, all the ones up to the areas i have gotten to)
But this has been more of a process of getting them just for the heck of getting them, as i am a bit of a collector/completionist, not because i had a build in mind

Im using glimmer of light in my build atm, but this is just because its actually a heal, the only other HEAL i have is orison of healing, all the other "heals" available have some condition for their usefulness, like words of comfort

I still havent gotten around to creating a build that synergizes several skills' usefulness and weaknesses with eachother to create extra effects

this is the "build" im using atm, lets call it "random placement of useful skills"
(and im struggling in pve i might add)

Orison of Healing
Words of Comfort
Glimmer of Light (elite)
Mend Ailment
Remove Hex
Divine Boon (i dont actually use this, not sure why its on my skill bar)
Holy Haste (same as above)
Resurrect

My attribute placement is 12 in divine favor and healing prayers, the rest (3?) in protection

The elite skills i have gotten so far are Healer's Boon, Glimmer of Light, Light of Deliverance, Zealous Benediction

bingo

Well I'm afraid most healing builds will not get much more exciting then that one. Ow and words of comfort is a GREAT heal. It heals just 10 less then orison but if you're target has a condition on him ( wich are pretty comon ) then it will heal for 25 more the orison

.

The build i currently use for PvE:

Dwayna's Kiss
Words of Comfort
Orison of Healing
Light of Deliverance
-Condition Removal, doesn't really matter wich one as long as it's cheap with a reasonable recharge-
-Hex removal, same as above-
Holy Haste
-Resurrection-

Basically there's just 1 skill I have wich you don't.

To add to your current build I would suggest removing Glimmer in favor of Light of Deliverance. They both heal for about the same amount ( Light only when the party member is below 80% but you shouldnt be healing them if they are above. ) But Light heals your whole party, though it does have a slower cast time ( wich is what holy haste is for, wonderfull skill. ) and a longer recharge time ( wich is what your other heals are for. )

Now seeing the skills you already have unlocked I would suggest replacing Divine Boon with: Signet of Devotion or Healing Touch.

Signet of Devotion is basically energy management since you won't have to waste energy for small heals. Healing Touch ensures that you won't have to waste other healing skills wich might be needed for others on yourself. Though I find healing touch kinda useless in a build with light of deliverance since that also heals you for a pretty nice amount. But since you don't have Dwayna's kiss I suggest you take healing touch instead of that. It's not as good for healing others as Dwayna's kiss but it makes a decent heal for yourself and other casters ( do remember good positioning if healing them like this, don't just watch red bars :P )

the_jos · Nov 13, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

I think what you aren't getting is that she hasn't UNLOCKED the skills, so she just doesn't have anything show up at the trainers.

That's the same situation when I started my D/P, I guess.
Almost no skills available in early game, but I still managed to get my D to Sunspear Sanctuary and the mission afterwards.
I'm still working with those early skills and a couple of elites i captured.

Or am I missing an other point here?

Cebe · Nov 13, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Wrong attitude. I'd prefer you to take blinding flash over AoR for cutting down physical damage. If you've allready got that I'd prefer gale for when something breaks and a caster needs some time to put some distance between that. If you've got gale I'd prefer wards for obvious reasons. If you've got all of them I'd prefer you to actually deal some damage as you've only got three skills left. Damage mitigation is important, crappy self heals aren't.

AoR is horrible. Ideally as an elementalist you shouldn't be taking damage. In this case AoR is pumping excess healing into someone who is at full health. If you are taking damage, you're either standing there casting in an attempt to get AoR to heal you, which is even worse as you start taking more damage, or you are (correctly) kiting and as such not casting and AoR is doing nothing while I prot you to hell.

It's a horribly conceived skill, it just acheives nothing under any group situation. I've monked for a stupid amount of hours, both in PVE and PVP and AoR makes me sick - there are some strong self heals that I like, but AoR isn't one of them.

I have to disagree with you there 100%. Providing the ele skills you take are spammable AoR is fantastic. My brother, WHO DOES PLAY MONK...has commented how he rarely needs to heal me. Also, I'm not sure I like your suggestion for an ele build. Gale + Blinding Flash + Wards. So that's 13 in Energy Storage, 16 in Air and...how much in Earth? And frankly, who cares if I'm over healing myself...at least my health isn't going down and I am one caster the monks don't need to keep a constant eye on. Gale causes exhaustion. Not good. Blinding flash is ok but only works on one foe...so basically you spend 15 energy blinding one foe...wait until it recharges, spend another 15 energy blinding another foe....again..again... Waste of time. I only bring blinding flash if I know there will be fierce melee monsters who can inflict real pain... such as bosses. I spike. It's what I do. Thus I bring powerful air skills and spam the hell outta them and get a lot of health back off AoR.

Now this is not to say I don't take your views on board...from time to time I like to go earth. When I go earth I DO take wards and knockdowns...because that's what earth does...it's defensive. I don't take AoR with earth because it's not spammable enough to give me a good enough heal. So it's all completely dependent on the magic you run with. Earth lends itself to what you want...Air (my usual choice) does not. Sure gale knocks down but is far too spammable for it's own good, does not to any damage AND causes exhaustion...and ONLY works on one foe...unlick Dragon's Stomp. Sure, it also causes exhaustion...but it also deals damage and knocks down multiple foes. It isn't spammable enough to cause mass exhaustion.

Lania Elderfire · Nov 13, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

As a monk I never play with PUG's anymore. I learned my lesson when someone called my a "stupid hooker" the last time I played a monk, for not keeping the party alive when the idiot was running around like crazy and agrro'ing everything. I don't care anymore, I only play with people I know. At least they know how to watch aggro, kite, and play as a team.

And this isn't the first time I heard this either... Many other people have complained.

And then people wonder why monks are all fed up... go figure

Effigy · Nov 13, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

@Celestial Beaver: You certaintly don't need 13 Energy Storage. This is the problem with many players. They get stuck in the two attribute mentality and end up limiting themselves too much. You could easily drop Storage down to 11 or 9 to free up points for Earth. Alternately, you could put the extra points in Healing to spam HP for group support.

Blinding Flash doesn't need to be spammed to be effective. As you said, it's mostly needed for powerful melee enemies. Even if you only blind a couple melee mobs during a fight, you've cut down the enemy's offense considerably.

Aura of Restoration can help a bit against pressure, but it isn't likely to make much of a difference overall. The spells you'll be spamming generally don't have that high of a cost, which means AoR will heal for less. In general, you'd prevent a lot more damage by bring a Ward or blinding some melee enemies.

@Lania Elderfire: PUGs who blame the monk are annoying, but you just have to accept that people will look to any excuse but their own incompetence. This is the same reason you see so many accusations of hacking on FPS games. If someone loses, they don't want to accept that they lost to a better player so they come up with a reasonable explanation that won't wound their pride. Just ignore the fools who try to criticize you. If you know you were doing your job, you have nothing to be worried about.

That said, I usually play with henchies, heroes, and guildmates too. I find that it's just easier in most situations than taking a chance on a group of random players.

XvArchonvX · Nov 13, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Ok, I think a lot of people are missing the one factor that makes AoR a good skill. Yes, it does crappy healing, but that generally isn't the point. AoR is an excellent long lasting, fast recharging cover enchant. Given, a cover enchant isn't always needed, when you run any build that is attunement based, AoR is almost always a good choice for an ele in PvE since there is so much enchant hate out there. Also, as far as this debate goes for what the best ele defense is, I would argue that if you are doing PvE, then a fire or earth AoE damage build is your best bet. Wards are nice, but generally are kind of a waste unless you run a complete support character. If you want to be a damage dealer, then build to specialize in that area. To prevent taking damage as an ele, the BEST defense is simply knowing how to stay out of harm's way. If you are taking damage, kite and let the monk protect you. If you are not taking damage, stay back and blast the hell out of your foes. There is nothing wrong with building an ele build with little to no defensive skills as long as you know how to position yourself.

Getting back on subject: I have one word for people that get all wound up just because some nub cake cusses at them for "not healing them enough".

Meh

If you see a child blathering on making up some wild story about how he is going to fly to outer space and fight the bad guys on the moon, you might chuckle, or roll your eyes. When some guy starts making wild claims about you doing a bad job when you know you did just fine, why should you get fired up over this when it is just as false? Sometimes you just gotta let things roll off you like rain drops.

arcady · Nov 13, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

There are a -lot- of skills available to be unlocked in Nightfall if you go back to where the Command Training mission was done and run around talking to every single expert there - even if not for your profession.

The last page of this discussion makes me wonder if other people missed this.

gobla · Nov 14, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

There are a -lot- of skills available to be unlocked in Nightfall if you go back to where the Command Training mission was done and run around talking to every single expert there - even if not for your profession.

The last page of this discussion makes me wonder if other people missed this.

If you talk to 1 expert and then Immediatly talk to the first spear he will give you all the skills that they would have given.......

This makes for a total of 8 skills ( not including rez sig. )

Yadee · Nov 14, 2006, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobla

Well I'm afraid most healing builds will not get much more exciting then that one. Ow and words of comfort is a GREAT heal. It heals just 10 less then orison but if you're target has a condition on him ( wich are pretty comon ) then it will heal for 25 more the orison

.

The build i currently use for PvE:

Dwayna's Kiss
Words of Comfort
Orison of Healing
Light of Deliverance
-Condition Removal, doesn't really matter wich one as long as it's cheap with a reasonable recharge-
-Hex removal, same as above-
Holy Haste
-Resurrection-

Basically there's just 1 skill I have wich you don't.

To add to your current build I would suggest removing Glimmer in favor of Light of Deliverance. They both heal for about the same amount ( Light only when the party member is below 80% but you shouldnt be healing them if they are above. ) But Light heals your whole party, though it does have a slower cast time ( wich is what holy haste is for, wonderfull skill. ) and a longer recharge time ( wich is what your other heals are for. )

Now seeing the skills you already have unlocked I would suggest replacing Divine Boon with: Signet of Devotion or Healing Touch.

Signet of Devotion is basically energy management since you won't have to waste energy for small heals. Healing Touch ensures that you won't have to waste other healing skills wich might be needed for others on yourself. Though I find healing touch kinda useless in a build with light of deliverance since that also heals you for a pretty nice amount. But since you don't have Dwayna's kiss I suggest you take healing touch instead of that. It's not as good for healing others as Dwayna's kiss but it makes a decent heal for yourself and other casters ( do remember good positioning if healing them like this, don't just watch red bars :P )

im gonna try that out

not a fan of my hex or condition removal skills though, mend ailment and remove hex
mend ailment takes a long time to reuse (5 seconds)
remove hex takes a whopping 7 seconds to reuse, but also 2 seconds to cast

are there any other removers at all in NF ? Sure isnt any available at trainers

Cebe · Nov 14, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lania Elderfire

As a monk I never play with PUG's anymore. I learned my lesson when someone called my a "stupid hooker" the last time I played a monk, for not keeping the party alive when the idiot was running around like crazy and agrro'ing everything. I don't care anymore, I only play with people I know.

"Stupid Hooker" is a little bit harsh. I'd just be tempted to leave the group...given that they seem to think you weren't doing anything!!

I also MUCH prefer to play with people I know...people out of our alliance. It is very rare you come across a group of random human players who all have the same attitude and mentality to the game but when you do it is so refreshing and fun. I started playing monk on the Nightfall Release and at first I didn't like healing...much preferred smiting

but now I have a good choice of skills I don't mind it so much. I have been going with Hench and Heroes whenever possible though. I wanted to do SUnjiang District last night but there was noone there so I figured, what the hell, let's go with heroes/hench. I took the urn and stood there and pretty much did NOTHING. Was fantastic! A couple of times Jamei, the only other healer needed healing but it was immensely enjoyable and with 4 eles in the team (Sousuke, Vhang, Kai Ying, Cynn) things just dropped.

I was also in a group last night for Abbadon's Gate...the first group I was in tried and failed since one wammo continually went on and on and on about Martyr. Now, I didn't have Martyr and yea, it might be useful, but "you're not a monk...you're a wammo". In the end I guess I was kinda rude and told him to STFU, the best I had extinguish and it would have to do, if he didn't like it he could find another group. For another reason we got utterly pwnd... The wammo left. We went in again and won hands down...on reflection all I seemed to use was Light of Deliverance and Extinguish. GG.

XvArchonvX · Nov 14, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yadee

im gonna try that out

not a fan of my hex or condition removal skills though, mend ailment and remove hex
mend ailment takes a long time to reuse (5 seconds)
remove hex takes a whopping 7 seconds to reuse, but also 2 seconds to cast

are there any other removers at all in NF ? Sure isnt any available at trainers

If you want a good condition and hex removal, bring Dismiss Condition (which also doubles as a good heal spell for enchanted allies when you specialize in protection) or Mend Condition and Holy Veil. When using Holy Veil, just cancel the enchant as soon as you cast it to remove the hex and you are left with a 1 second cast time hex removal skill with a decent recharge time. Inspired hex isn't really a bad idea since you can still remove a hex for free just by putting a few leftover points into inspiration, but the recharge is a lot longer and the energy return is not what it used to be since it was last nerfed.

Effigy · Nov 14, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Inspired Hex just isn't what it used to be. Now it's basically just a free hex removal you can use once every 21 seconds. Holy Veil is a better choice now imo.

XvArchonvX · Nov 14, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Inspired Hex just isn't what it used to be. Now it's basically just a free hex removal you can use once every 21 seconds. Holy Veil is a better choice now imo.

With Holy Veil you get a hex removal at the cost of 5 energy every 12 seconds while inspired hex removed a hex for free every 20 seconds with only 2 points in inspiration. While it's definately not the energy management tool it once was, it is still the most energy efficient hex removal in the game. If you have a build that can afford the extra energy spent and are expecting to encounter frequent hexes, then Holy Veil is the better choice. Neither is a bad choice, even after the i-hex nerf, but it really depends on what else is on your skill bar or what environment you are going into.

Pebbles · Nov 14, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Are you kidding me? Monks are more popular in PvE Than ever, Most pepole know that a skilled decent monk outperforms the heros anyday whitch get attacked and run around abit.

Just make sure you go about alone without any heros and you can walk into any mission in the game even in offpeak times and say.
"Anyone want a monk for the mission?"

And you can visably see the effect in the outpost. Whereas there were 3 teams.

6/8
8/8
8/8

Chances are you can see them change before your eyes and appear in invite window as
7/8
7/8
7/8

Why do I still monk?

I like the challenge. When your the only monk in a team of 8 and they aggro 2 mobs and you only loose 1 of your allies... Even if your work gose completely uncredited you can say to yourself quitely "Oh yeah... I still rock the boat."

I use dismiss for condtion removal I would have gone with words of comfort but I just don't think it compairs.

If it read "Heal for XX health for EACH condtion on ally" Then I would have swapped it for condtion removal... I never bother with hexes myself unless theres a special need for it. (then it's usually blessed light.)

Dwyanas is still superior for healing clean through any uncoordinated PvE Hexes.

Effigy · Nov 14, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

With Holy Veil you get a hex removal at the cost of 5 energy every 12 seconds while inspired hex removed a hex for free every 20 seconds with only 2 points in inspiration. While it's definately not the energy management tool it once was, it is still the most energy efficient hex removal in the game. If you have a build that can afford the extra energy spent and are expecting to encounter frequent hexes, then Holy Veil is the better choice. Neither is a bad choice, even after the i-hex nerf, but it really depends on what else is on your skill bar or what environment you are going into.

In my experience, if you are facing hexes that actually need to be removed, one removal every 20 seconds is not going to be enough. Chances are there will be hexes on multiple allies, and even if it's only on one person you might end up Inspiring a cover hex. Even though IHex is free, it just doesn't get the job done in my opinion. The 5e you spend on Holy Veil will be made up in the damage you prevent.

Another benefit of HV is the option of pre-Veiling the tank before he aggros if you can expect hexes, which means you will regen the initial 5e and have HV already recharge to cast it again if necessary. HV is just more powerful now that IHex doesn't return an appreciable amount of energy.

XvArchonvX · Nov 14, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

In my experience, if you are facing hexes that actually need to be removed, one removal every 20 seconds is not going to be enough. Chances are there will be hexes on multiple allies, and even if it's only on one person you might end up Inspiring a cover hex.

As I said, it depends on the situation. Not everywhere in GW is hex heavy, and in such places i-hex works just fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Even though IHex is free, it just doesn't get the job done in my opinion. The 5e you spend on Holy Veil will be made up in the damage you prevent.

Depends on the hex. In most places there are so many hexes spammed that it's a waste of time to try to get em all. Even with HV, you still can only get one every 12 seconds. The best use of a hex removal with a monk is to take away the really critical hexes that are hurting you or your allies since there are a lot of hexes that really don't do any more damage than an orison could heal. If you are in an area that needs constant hex removal, then you are best to recruit a support class character to focus on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Another benefit of HV is the option of pre-Veiling the tank before he aggros if you can expect hexes, which means you will regen the initial 5e and have HV already recharge to cast it again if necessary. HV is just more powerful now that IHex doesn't return an appreciable amount of energy.

Pre-veiling a tank is nice, but really makes next to no difference in a battle. You can believe what you want, but to say there are advantages and disadvantages to each choice of hex removal. When used in the right environment, either skill can be more effective, so there really isn't a "more powerful" choice.

Earendil · Nov 14, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I've monked my way though the 3 chapters till the end. Monked in PvP, HA and GvG. When I started my monk in june 2005 I thought I'd have an easy time finding good pugs. Yet, except for the first few weeks, I never monked with PUGs...never - only guildies and friends. The amount of verbal abuse you can hear in a PUG (not necessarily directed to you) makes the experience too unpleasant.

Its not the Monks-PuG relation that's a problem....it's PuGs. You get a lot of people there that find their pleasure in being annoying, irritating or simply aggressive. Not to mention uneffective players and unwilling to change. As a monk you're a perfect target yet they'll attack anything that moves.

I personally rely on hero monks now (even for my Monk

who turned smiter for NF). I can safely say they are more reliable than 95% of PC monks (me included - yes....I do sometimes miss a PS or RoF, press the wrong key, get a 2 sec lag...etc - Hero monks do not). They have no lag, good reaction times...Also - I added on both skill bars Power Drain and Leech Signet since they have the required speed and distributive attention to turn these into a very effective energy engine while also disrupting the enemy... something that I, an experienced PvE monk, I cannot do too often.

Heroes = the death of PuGs. "Good" people (as in polite and interested in doing well) no longer take the PuG train. That increases the percentage of "not good", annoying LFG people from 90% to 99%. I feel sad...Anet kept the hench system at a rather low efficiency hoping that this will force people to play together and enjoy it. After 1.5 years of failure they finally abbandoned and gave us the hero system.

Earendil

Effigy · Nov 14, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

@XvArchonvX: I think many monks still use Inspired Hex mostly from force of habit. Previously it allowed you to remove a hex every 20 seconds while also supplying you with ~5 energy. It was useful as a hex removal, but it was even more useful as energy management.

Not that the energy management aspect is pretty much gone, it's more or less just a mediocre hex removal. Even if it can remove a hex at no cost, the fact that it can only do it once every 20 seconds makes me hesitant to devote a skill slot to it.

Right now, IHex is to hex removal as Signet of Devotion is to healing. The difference is that SoD can be used often and thus you can get quite a bit of mileage out of it. If SoD had a 20 second recharge, do you think anyone would use it?

@Earendil: Really, I'm glad they introduced the hero system. Many good players used to avoid PUGs even before heroes came out, and thus they were stuck with the frustration of lack-lustre henchmen. Now, they are no longer punished for their aversion to playing with idiots.

Heroes have revitalized my enjoyment of PvE, for one.

XvArchonvX · Nov 14, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

@XvArchonvX: I think many monks still use Inspired Hex mostly from force of habit. Previously it allowed you to remove a hex every 20 seconds while also supplying you with ~5 energy. It was useful as a hex removal, but it was even more useful as energy management.

Not that the energy management aspect is pretty much gone, it's more or less just a mediocre hex removal. Even if it can remove a hex at no cost, the fact that it can only do it once every 20 seconds makes me hesitant to devote a skill slot to it.

This is getting a bit redundant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Right now, IHex is to hex removal as Signet of Devotion is to healing. The difference is that SoD can be used often and thus you can get quite a bit of mileage out of it. If SoD had a 20 second recharge, do you think anyone would use it?

This is a pretty flawed analogy. Do you think anyone would use SoD if it had a 12 second recharge time?? SoD does little healing, is not affected by divine favor, has a 2 second cast time, and has a pretty long recharge time for a heal skill, but is still used because it is a free heal. Ihex has the same cast time as HV, is not affected by divine favor, and also has a long recharge time, but it is a free hex removal and can be spammed at no cost. Basically i-hex is still used for hex removal the same reason that SoD is used for healing. While i-hex is not as powerful as it once was, it is still a good choice in the right situation.[/QUOTE]